QUESTION
Has the Department of Education analyzed the impact of class size on pass rates and cost savings?
1:08:31
·
5 min
The Department of Education has not conducted an analysis on the impact of class size on pass rates and potential cost savings.
- Council Member Eric Dinowitz questions the analysis of pass rates in relation to class size and its potential for cost savings in high schools.
- Dan Weisberg, First Deputy Chancellor of the Department of Education, confirms the lack of such specific analysis but acknowledges the positive belief in smaller class sizes.
- Dinowitz emphasizes the importance of considering both the financial and academic benefits of reduced class sizes in policy discussions.
- Discussions highlight concerns about the implementation of reduced class sizes, including staffing and the availability of AP classes.
Eric Dinowitz
1:08:31
Have you done analysis in the DOE, which is full of data to indicate how many what the percentages compared, you know, how how they compare students sorry, teachers who teach high numbers of students in classes, what the pass rate is compared to lower.
1:08:48
And the reason I'm asking that is this.
1:08:51
High schools create sections specifically for students who fail.
1:08:57
They fail 1 year.
1:08:58
They fail the regions.
1:08:58
They fail the class.
1:08:59
They they have to repeat that course again.
1:09:01
And teachers take time away from things like electives AP classes so that they could teach repeaters.
1:09:09
And when class sizes are smaller, it is less likely that students will fail.
1:09:14
So what analyses has a deal we've done to indicate the benefits and the cost savings that might actually come out of reducing class sizes specifically in the high schools.
Dan Weisberg
1:09:25
We have not.
1:09:25
I mean, it's a great it's a great question.
1:09:27
It's good to see your council member, Denowitz.
1:09:29
It's a great question.
1:09:30
To my knowledge, we have not done that specific analysis.
1:09:33
It's kind of as you heard from Doctor Kirkland, baked into our belief system is it's going to be a positive thing to have smaller classes in high school and and and every other level.
1:09:44
We have not done that that analysis about whether there could be some mitigation of the costs for the reasons you say because the outcomes are better yet.
1:09:52
You have fewer remediation classes, etcetera.
1:09:54
But we can absolutely take a look at that.
Eric Dinowitz
1:09:56
Well, look, you you are citing costs as one of your huge concerns.
1:10:01
And what and what I'm saying to you today is that the costs may not be so much of a concern if you take into account the number of students who will pass, not to mention the benefits to them, to ask how many fewer students would be taking remedial courses or prerequisite courses in college as a result of doing better.
1:10:20
How many more students will be getting into their top college choice as a result of smaller class sizes, how many more students would be engaged and even want to take those AP classes that we all want our students to have access to.
1:10:35
Who from the Department of Education would be conducting those analyses?
Dan Weisberg
1:10:41
Our our office of policy and evaluation.
Eric Dinowitz
1:10:45
Okay.
1:10:45
I I so I would point out when when you come to hearing only citing costs Without citing the benefits of a particular law or particular policy, it becomes very challenging to have honest conversations about what budget and implementation looks like.
1:11:00
So I I am looking forward to seeing what that looks like so we can have a more robust conversation about the class size law.
Dan Weisberg
1:11:09
I just want to respectfully push back.
1:11:10
I think each one of us and particularly Doctor Kirkland talked, I think, quite passionately about the benefits.
1:11:17
Of smaller classes.
1:11:18
So we're in a we are in no way given that short shrift, but we do have to talk about how to implement.
Khalek Kirkland
1:11:25
Yeah, counsel counsel counsel counsel, let me I think that everyone here would be willing to spend whatever it cost to reduce class size.
1:11:35
So let's be very clear.
1:11:36
We all love reduced class size, and we would all rather invest money in education than jails.
1:11:45
White Councilwoman, Joseph said.
1:11:48
But we also ask that a very important question about what would be the implications of putting this forth.
1:11:55
So one major implication that I was discussing was you have a a one of the greatest schools with low incidents that needs an additional 45 teachers.
1:12:07
What's gonna happen?
1:12:08
Those teachers are gonna those 1st year teachers at Annauer Brownsville have a year under their belt.
1:12:15
Of being educate of educating scholars.
1:12:19
And where are they gonna go?
1:12:20
They're gonna go to that high functioning school.
1:12:25
And it's gonna leave schools like Brownsville with a bigger deficit.
1:12:30
That's a problem.
1:12:30
And you're right.
1:12:33
As an educator, the the AP classes are always the classes that teachers don't mind having a large class size.
1:12:42
Because those children are very orderly, very studious, and you could teach bigger classes.
1:12:47
But if we if if the if the law isn't acted, like Councilman Lee said, you're going to have to legally find a second teacher for that class and there's no policy or mandate that says children must get an AP bio class.
1:13:06
There's no Lord, it says that.
1:13:08
So what's gonna happen is is that if you don't have a teacher to the with a license to teach that AP bio class, those scholars are gonna go without having that AP bio subject.
1:13:20
And that's unfortunate.
Eric Dinowitz
1:13:22
Yeah.
1:13:22
I wanna thank you and thank the chair.
1:13:24
I don't doubt anyone's commitment to our children or to smaller classes But the question is not what we believe it's it's what we do.
1:13:34
Yeah.
1:13:34
And all of the examples I always hear aren't It it sounds like in these specific examples, there there may be problems or concerns, which may be very real.
1:13:46
But in those specific examples, aren't reasons to not go fully forward with with the law and things we know benefit most students.
1:13:55
So I thank you for your time, and thank you, chair Joseph.
Rita C. Joseph
1:14:00
Thank you.
1:14:00
Council member Brewer.
Gale Brewer
1:14:02
Thank you very much.