QUESTION
How is the policy on probation officers carrying firearms discussed and justified?
0:59:43
·
6 min
The conversation explores the enforcement and necessity of probation officers carrying firearms, highlighting a re-evaluation of the policy after two decades.
- Jumaane Williams questions the message sent by equating authority with possession of firearms and seeks clarification on the policy's enforcement and its impact.
- Commissioner Juanita Holmes explains the operational requirement for probation officers to secure their firearms during client interactions, emphasizing safety and discretion.
- The policy's enforcement is rooted in historical practices; however, it faces scrutiny regarding its necessity based on two decades of varied enforcement.
- The discussion includes how the policy affects perceptions of authority and safety among probation officers and the people they supervise.
- Assistant Commissioner Sharun Goodwin clarifies changes in the policy and the overall goal of ensuring officer and public safety while conducting field visits.
Jumaane Williams
0:59:43
1, I I wanted to go back to the the the guns conversation, and I'd there was and I hope you agree with me.
0:59:52
There was an exception.
0:59:53
I want to push back on to the framing.
0:59:55
I think you said, we have to know who the authority figure is.
0:59:58
And so I was concerned about assigning that with a gun because I think that's a different message than what we're trying to tell our young people and can be mis extrude whoever has the bigger gun is what shows who the authority figure is.
Juanita Holmes
1:00:12
No.
1:00:12
That was regarding the uniform shirt, the soft shirt, not the gun.
1:00:15
Yeah.
1:00:16
That's just the uniform.
1:00:17
Not the firearm.
1:00:18
Absolutely not.
1:00:19
Not the firearm.
Jumaane Williams
1:00:19
Okay.
1:00:21
But in that so this is I don't wanna get in the conversation of who should have firearm who shouldn't.
1:00:27
But I think something unique happened here.
1:00:29
So this was put in 2003.
Alex Stein
1:00:31
Mhmm.
Jumaane Williams
1:00:31
And for whatever reason, it wasn't put, it wasn't, I mean, forced.
1:00:36
So we have 2 several 2 decades of data of what it's like to carry out this job without the firearm.
1:00:45
And so have we looked at that data to see if we're able to do without the firearm before he made decision to reinforce it.
Juanita Holmes
1:00:51
Right.
1:00:52
So I wanna clarify.
1:00:53
Everyone had a fire.
1:00:54
I didn't give him one.
1:00:55
They it's part of their job.
1:00:57
So what was happening was exactly like I said, if they're in a neon and they feel they wanna secure their firearm, it was my job to make sure they had a space to secure their firearms while dealing with their clients.
1:01:11
They have that space has been provided, I put in cameras over the space.
1:01:15
There's access card to get in.
1:01:18
So even clients coming into the facility won't be able to compromise it.
1:01:22
It's their discretion to when they're interacting with a compliant.
1:01:26
When they're going out and responding to someone's home.
1:01:29
That's a that's a whole different story.
1:01:31
And I don't think something should have to happen before we say, oh, well, maybe if they were carrying, it's Right.
1:01:39
You know?
1:01:40
So I
Jumaane Williams
1:01:41
think that is a a fair point.
1:01:43
I'm just saying that we had a new unique opportunity to have a discussion about something that we otherwise might not have.
1:01:49
Because I think the assumption would be that you may need to take the firearm on some of these visits.
1:01:53
But we have 2 decades of where that might not have been happening So that might have been an interesting way to look at whether it is necessary on all of these visits.
1:02:02
And so my question is, did we digest any conversation of data to see if that was something that we need to reinforce.
Juanita Holmes
1:02:09
So I yes.
1:02:10
So that data is my life.
1:02:11
I did look at data.
1:02:12
I don't want it to be where people think for 2 decades they weren't carrying fire on.
1:02:17
Several members were and some weren't.
1:02:19
That's what it was.
1:02:20
But, yes, the data
Jumaane Williams
1:02:22
So that's even better so we had a control
Juanita Holmes
1:02:24
Well, I don't think it was a control because Gaffa did something happen now.
1:02:27
I'm using you as a shield Right.
1:02:28
Because you got the fire off.
1:02:29
So but my thing is, What happens is that when we took a look at the data, no line of duty deaths.
1:02:36
I don't know if that was attributed to not caring or caring or just then that just God is good.
1:02:43
But with that being said, I I know that Probation officers have suffered some injuries, but nothing, you know, that I've seen when we looked at the data.
1:02:55
And I have members that's been here 30 years and we probably got over a 100 or something years of of experience here.
1:03:01
And so we we haven't seen that, which is which is great.
Jumaane Williams
1:03:06
We're offices who weren't carrying it to all the visits complaining?
Juanita Holmes
1:03:11
Yeah.
1:03:12
They won't.
1:03:13
You can speak to
Sandy Nurse
1:03:13
that.
1:03:14
Okay.
Juanita Holmes
1:03:18
Present?
1:03:19
Yeah.
1:03:20
Okay.
Sharun Goodwin
1:03:20
I just wanna make some clarifications.
1:03:24
It was mandatory back in 2003 where everyone carried a
Jumaane Williams
1:03:29
firearm.
1:03:29
Understood.
Sharun Goodwin
1:03:30
Then what the switch of the commissioner It was people who are in supervision, carries a firearm, all other people who are not in the field.
1:03:42
They could it it was an optional for them.
1:03:47
It was optional for them.
1:03:49
However, what the commissioner was talking about is that we have offices who I the guy injured or for whatever reason, their weapon was taken, but they were still in a supervision, and they were still going in the field with someone who had a gun and they didn't have a gun.
1:04:07
And they were already a gun president.
1:04:09
Yeah.
1:04:09
1, but somebody else didn't have one.
1:04:13
And that became an issue you for the offices.
Juanita Holmes
1:04:17
So the so the clarity is if they're inside and they're dealing with Neon, it's optional.
1:04:22
When they go out, and they're conducting field visits, the supervision operations, they all should be carrying a firearm.
1:04:30
Does that make sense?
1:04:31
I think maybe no clarity.
Jumaane Williams
1:04:33
But my time is on.
1:04:34
So I I just wanna say, I think we're trying to find the world where we can communicate without guns.
1:04:41
He had asked me in 2003 whether they should've shouldn't have probably would say they might need it.
1:04:46
And what I'm saying is now, for whatever reason, we have a lot, 2 decades of where it wasn't mandated, and it seemed to have been whatever was put in place where the supervisors who had it and not everybody that seemed to be working.
1:04:59
I'd rather I don't wanna belabor here, so maybe there's a conversation.
1:05:03
To have after.
1:05:03
I'm just saying if it was working, why at this moment would we have to change it?
1:05:08
Perhaps, the having less of a firearm calm the situation to make go a certain way.
1:05:15
I don't know the answer, but I just wanna know if there was, you know, conversations that have occurred before we made that decision.
1:05:21
Mhmm.
Juanita Holmes
1:05:22
Right?
1:05:23
So it was conversation, but I think it's confusion.
1:05:26
It the majority of people in operations had their firearms.
1:05:29
Some members may have had their removed for domestic incident, you know, personal violations or whatever that, you know, against the agency's policy.
1:05:38
Those are the individuals that are in operations going out of of I mean, think I think it's about 33 people now.
1:05:46
So those were the individuals that we wanted to make sure had their firearms along with the rest of the supervision.
1:05:52
Because they that supervision was always mandated and always had firearms for the last 21 years.
1:05:59
That's what she's saying.
Jumaane Williams
1:06:00
Yes.
1:06:01
And some people didn't.
1:06:02
And I I I totally understand.
1:06:03
My time my my time is up so they can look forward to to having the conversations.
1:06:06
I I was gonna ask a question, and we can ask a later.
1:06:08
Maybe I'll just make it a point.
1:06:10
I think young people don't like adults and they don't like law enforcement, and we're usually ones making the program.
1:06:15
So I was just wondering if you are using other people to help design the programs and implement it in commission and magnetility.
1:06:23
I won't be here for my questions because I have to head out, but I'm looking forward to have a conversation.