Q&A
Debate on defining and assessing violence in mental health crisis situations
2:54:32
·
4 min
Council Member Cabán raises concerns about how violence is defined and assessed in mental health crisis situations, particularly in the context of dispatch and response teams. The discussion reveals differences in approach between dispatch and on-scene responders.
- Cabán emphasizes the importance of language used to describe behavior in crisis situations
- NYPD dispatch defines aggressive or destructive behavior as potentially violent, triggering a police response
- B-HEARD teams make independent judgments about what they feel comfortable with when on scene
- Cabán argues for a more nuanced understanding of what constitutes violence in mental health crises
- The discussion highlights the challenges in standardizing responses to mental health crises and the need for ongoing training and education for all involved parties
Tiffany Cabán
2:54:32
and it's not even a matter of when to call 911 versus 911.
2:54:35
It's just it's it's how do you how do you describe somebody's behavior?
2:54:38
Like, that's actually the language you used to describe somebody's behavior is actually what's important.
2:54:42
And I wonder if people within the administration understand that.
2:54:45
And, also, again, if the public understands And this question is connected to that.
2:54:48
I wanna know more about how dispatch defines violence.
2:54:51
Because if you ask our mayor, he's been on the record describing shadow boxing as violence.
2:54:57
Somebody else might think that that a person in a mental experiencing mental health episode yelling absentities is violence, but it's not.
2:55:07
And again, a real life example is I was with mental health, the the Portland team, and they they told me this story.
2:55:14
They said, You know, we went to a call and we showed up and, you know, the the police are back there.
2:55:19
They're we we don't they don't get called in, but the gentleman when we got there who was experiencing the mental health crisis had a bunch of rocks in his pocket, in a couple of rocks in his hands.
2:55:29
And the police tried to come in saying, he's got a weapon.
2:55:32
We gotta go in.
2:55:33
And the mental health responder says, no.
2:55:36
No.
2:55:36
No.
2:55:36
No.
2:55:37
No.
2:55:37
It's okay.
2:55:39
We don't need you to come in.
2:55:40
And he walked in He sat down next to this person, which the police officers because of the orientation, the because of the training would have been like, that's not protocol.
2:55:50
You cannot do that.
2:55:51
You don't sit side by side.
2:55:52
You're vulnerable.
2:55:53
X, y, n, z.
2:55:54
It's really to be to no.
2:55:55
I feel safe.
2:55:56
That's what I did.
2:55:57
And over the course of a conversation, one rock comes out of the pocket, 2 rocks come out of the pocket, 3 rocks come out of the pocket, and they have this really good conversation, and it sets the tone.
2:56:06
Right?
2:56:07
And so And this again goes back to the language and how we're describing things.
2:56:11
How does dispatch define violence?
2:56:15
How are the teams defining violence?
2:56:17
How is the NYPD assessing what is violent or or not violent?
2:56:21
Because that dispatch team said, no.
2:56:23
This person holding rocks.
2:56:25
That's not a weapon, and it's not violence, and we should be the team responding, not the police.
2:56:30
But in this situation, the police could have very well said, no.
2:56:34
That's a weapon.
2:56:35
We're we're gonna do that.
2:56:35
So how are each of these pieces of the of sort of the the process defining violence.
Ebony Washington
2:56:43
I wanna start by saying thank you for recognizing the hard work that operators have.
2:56:49
It's not easy.
Tiffany Cabán
2:56:50
No.
2:56:50
It's
Ebony Washington
2:56:50
not.
2:56:51
Right?
2:56:51
And so my operators are taught to take what the caller is saying at face volume.
2:56:58
Right?
2:56:58
We're not gonna assume anything.
2:57:01
We're going to document what they're saying.
2:57:06
And given the services that they need, whether it's police fire or medical.
2:57:10
Okay?
2:57:11
I would say that an aggressive or destructive behavior could be considered violent.
2:57:20
Alright?
2:57:20
So they're describing someone saying that they're swinging at me or they're banging on a car or they're destroying items in the house, that would trigger a police response.
2:57:35
Along with possibly EMS.
2:57:39
If there's some type of medical history possibly, if there's something more.
Tiffany Cabán
2:57:44
If there's a discretion if there's some sort of destruction of property, but not a threat to a person.
2:57:49
Can the team say, hey.
2:57:50
No.
2:57:51
We feel comfortable.
2:57:52
This actually isn't violence, and we're equipped to deal with this situation.
Ebony Washington
2:57:58
Well, that's gonna have to be determined on the scene.
2:58:01
Right?
2:58:01
The operate is not gonna determine that.
Jason Hansman
2:58:04
Right.
2:58:05
And so if it's on the scene with the B.
2:58:06
H.
2:58:06
Team, they're making independent judgments about what what they feel comfortable with in the moment.
Victor Herrera
2:58:12
So I
Gale Brewer
2:58:12
think that
Tiffany Cabán
2:58:13
might not even be there in the moment depending on what happened in dispatch.
Sasha Myrie
2:58:15
Correct.
2:58:16
Correct.
Jason Hansman
2:58:16
Well, I was ask answering your question about, you know, what what the team thinks and what the team might feel is violent or not violent.
2:58:23
Right?
2:58:23
So if this if it is undirected, you know, destruction of property and a B.
2:58:28
H.
2:58:28
Team is there, they might not feel that that is violent.
2:58:31
In the moment.
Ebony Washington
2:58:35
And I mentioned earlier that things are very fluid.
2:58:38
Right?
2:58:39
Initially, when a person calls, they may be exhibiting that behavior.
2:58:44
2, 3 minutes go goes past, people calm down.
2:58:47
And vice versa, it could be very calm initially and then escalate.
Tiffany Cabán
2:58:52
But is there clear training sort of expanding workers' knowledge of, again, this what is defined as as violence?
Ebony Washington
2:59:06
Again, are
Tiffany Cabán
2:59:07
are, like, are you walking through these ideas of, like, well, maybe that's actually not violent, yelling like this is not violent or Because is that
Ebony Washington
2:59:16
I'm gonna go back to what I said earlier.
2:59:18
They are trained to take things that face volume.
2:59:22
It's what the caller is stating is going on at that moment.
