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Q&A
Legal recourse for those affected by the gang database discussed
3:33:00
ยท
7 min
Council Member Yusef Salaam inquires about legal recourse for individuals affected by the gang database, including those indirectly impacted. Panelists respond, emphasizing the limited options available and the need for abolition of the database.
- Salaam asks about legal recourse for individuals labeled by the database and their families
- Panelists explain that there is little to no effective legal recourse available
- The discussion concludes that abolition of the gang database is the only real solution to address the harms caused
Yusef Salaam
3:33:00
Man, I'm so happy that this aspect of the conversation is coming out.
3:33:06
You know, have one follow-up question, and this is maybe more of a legal question because I didn't know that folks could get labeled for life like the parents and the loved ones and so forth and so on just because they're, you know, part of this.
3:33:23
I'm wondering what legal recourses do individuals have as a result of them being, I want to say adjacent, right?
3:33:36
My son, my friend, my, you know, whoever.
3:33:41
What legal recourses does a person have if any?
3:33:45
Because if they're labeled for life, you know, I can understand part of the conversation that's held here is that in the best of situations, children who are children do things that children do.
3:34:01
Once they become adults, they put away all of those childish acts and they start moving as adults do.
3:34:07
But when you have a situation that has been created and then there's an agency like the NYPD who is supposed to be protecting and serving used as the response to monitor what has been created by the system, those same children won't be able to be doing what normal children will be doing, right?
3:34:33
It's like you're in the margins of life, you're in the struggle, your back is against the wall.
3:34:38
And so I'm just wondering like what legal recourse is because we did speak about you know folks as young as under the age of 18 being on the database and so forth and so on, know.
3:34:51
I'm more inclined to find the solutions to these things and a lot of times it's coming from us, right.
3:34:58
It's those who've been not just in pain, but close to the pain that can now have a seat at the table to really articulate the issues in the most powerful way?
Babe Howell
3:35:11
Let me say we need to abolish the gang database.
3:35:14
There is no recourse that can make this up to you.
3:35:18
As you well know no one can turn back the time if you've been unfairly treated under this, because of these designations, because of this database, because the NYPD tells someone you're a gang member.
3:35:33
There's no true fixing that.
3:35:36
So question one, is there a legal recourse?
3:35:41
None that can make you whole.
3:35:43
Secondly, there's very little recourse anyway.
3:35:46
I mean, you take a case, you take these big RICO cases or any case where there's a gang allegation, it is really, really hard to win.
3:35:57
So unfortunately cases that if I had them when I was a defender in 1994 I would get probation, youthful offender, whatever.
3:36:06
Now it's like no, that kid's a gang member.
3:36:09
And we've arrested him 20 times because he's in our little database.
3:36:13
We're giving, we want him to do a five year bid on that same case.
3:36:17
And you know I'm begging for the one year.
3:36:20
So I was talking to, I had lawyers in my class last week, know, and I asked them isn't it hard to win these cases?
3:36:30
Aren't they so easy to prosecute and difficult to defend?
3:36:34
And one of the lawyers was like, well you know if a person's facing life then ten years is a win.
3:36:39
That shouldn't be where the gang allegation just shifts the whole inquiry with conspiracy or RICO charges.
3:36:48
You don't even have to commit the crimes yourself.
3:36:52
Just be part of the enterprise or part of the conspiracy.
3:36:57
So the burden of proof shifts.
3:36:59
The due process is eliminated.
3:37:02
There is no legal recourse which is why we're asking to abolish the gang database.
3:37:08
There's no other route.
3:37:11
The idea that people should have notice then maybe they can find out wait a minute, my landlord actually was told that I was in this gang database.
3:37:23
There's a world in which we're thinking that if people can find out what the information is and if it was ever shared they may be able to find out, you know, hey I didn't get this job with Department of Corrections or with the NYPD even because I was in the database.
3:37:39
Hopefully we'll find out some of the harms that were done.
3:37:43
And by the way while the DOI starts by saying no harms were proven, on page 22 of their report they say we didn't even look for harms.
3:37:51
That would have been too difficult to figure out what the impact on housing, employment, etcetera is.
3:37:57
So in any event, recourse is really hard.
3:38:04
That's why we have to stop labeling the kids in these ways.
3:38:07
It's not useful.
3:38:09
And they have said over and over these are neighborhood groups.
3:38:12
These are not gangs.
Anthony Posada
3:38:18
Anthony?
3:38:20
While there may be some reentry programs in different fields that allow people to, in the case of NYCHA that you might have heard of the permanent exclusion, that there is a field there for people to be able to come back.
3:38:32
But it doesn't separate or we're not yet done with this part of the conversation which is that policing in this way is part of just a larger culture of treating black and Latino and communities of color in this fashion and so the recourse is really abolishing the database.
Victor Dempsey
3:38:51
Only thing I will add is that as advocates as well by the time we are introduced to a community member who's been impacted by a gang designation, the damage is already done.
3:39:03
A lot of times with folks and as you heard today even from NYPD themselves, there is no form of transparency.
3:39:10
No one's being notified.
3:39:12
And even to back up a little bit further as I keep making mention of previous city council hearings, there was a push for notice to minus thing.
3:39:21
And unfortunately we had to really advocate against that as well.
3:39:23
Why?
3:39:24
Because it's more than just minus being impacted.
3:39:26
Right?
3:39:27
Even though today, I'm sitting here saying the voices of the youth is really gonna help us figure out that avenue, but the thing is validating the harms already.
3:39:35
Validating the database to figure out another way to use use it is a harm.
3:39:39
This is why we're all gonna continue to say abolition.
3:39:43
The only other thing and again this is not even a legal recourse but even just for community members to find out if they're on the database.
3:39:50
I know my colleagues at Legal Aid created a four year not even created but utilized a four year self process just for New Yorkers to see if they even own a database to begin with that NYPD is already secret about.
3:40:01
And we've done our due diligence, we've looked at other states who've had similar issues and we learned from them.
3:40:07
But today, there is no recourse unfortunately.
3:40:10
Abolition is truly the only route and the last thing oh man.
3:40:16
Yeah.
3:40:16
I'll leave it to the rest of my colleagues who will speak but I don't see any avenue.