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TESTIMONY

Amie Gross, President of Amie Gross Architects, on the need for economies of scale in affordable housing construction

9:00:29

·

4 min

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Amie Gross, President of Amie Gross Architects, supports the City of Yes initiative, emphasizing the importance of building larger affordable housing projects to reduce per-unit costs. She argues that increasing the scale of affordable housing developments can help offset rising construction costs and regulatory requirements.

Gross highlights that constructing a 75-unit building is more cost-effective per unit than a 50-unit building.
She notes that new Department of Buildings regulations coming in December will increase costs for buildings with 7 or more stories.
Gross argues that allowing larger buildings on the same zoning lot can lead to lower rents through economies of scale.

The cost to construct affordable housing has increased drastically
Building larger buildings (more units) reduces the cost per unit
New safety regulations increase construction costs
Economy of scale is crucial for affordable housing development
Non-profit developers need to build more units to make projects financially viable
Increasing building size in the same zoning lot can lead to more affordable rents

[EXPERIMENTAL]

Which elements of City of Yes for Housing Opportunity were discussed in this testimony?

I was not able to tie quotes from the testimony back to specific elements of the proposal. Check out another testimony here.

About this analysis:

This analysis is done by AI that reasons whether or not a quote from the testimony discusses a particular element of the proposal.

All the prompts and data are open and available on Github.

You can search for testimonies that mentioned a specific element in the table on the main meeting page.

When an element is explicitly stated in the testimony (e.g. "Universal Affordability Preference" or "UAP"), the analysis is accurate.

But the connection between a quote from the testimony and an element of the proposal is sometimes implicit.

In these cases, the AI might eagerly label a testimony as discussing a proposal when the connection is tenuous, or it might omit it entirely.

↗ Why are there transcription and diarization errors?

Amie Gross

9:00:29

I am Amy Gross.

9:00:30

I'm President of Amy Gross Architects.

9:00:33

For 4 decades as of this month, we have specialized in the design of new and renovated buildings that are primarily publicly funded.

9:00:42

Pardon me?

9:00:44

We design healthcare, educational and civic buildings, yet the significant focus of our work is affordable and supportive housing.

9:00:53

Our clients are not for profit developers who build such housing.

9:00:58

These type of developers create buildings that are 100% affordable.

9:01:02

Which is often not the case in buildings developed by for profit developers.

9:01:07

And most importantly, they meet the needs of individuals and families whose incomes are way below the New York City median income, a very, very huge need.

9:01:18

I'm sorry I haven't seen you all day and I realized I haven't drank enough.

9:01:22

I am proud to be a native New Yorker.

9:01:24

I was born in Glen Oaks Queens, and I now live in Lorne City.

9:01:29

As both an architect and a new Yorker, I have seen a drastic rise in rent and have witnessed firsthand the increasing cost to construct affordable I'm gonna ask a

Dan Garodnick

9:01:37

member of my team to graduate grab your glass of water.

9:01:40

We can't because we'll lose our quorum, but you keep going.

9:01:42

We're gonna have somebody to grab you

Robert Poole

9:01:43

some water.

Amie Gross

9:01:43

To construct affordable housing.

9:01:45

And at times, we now have a resulting decrease in the quality of the housing we build because of the cost of affordable housing.

9:01:53

And that's what I want to talk to you about.

9:01:55

To us at AGA, it is clear that the only effective way to build such housing is to build it affordably.

9:02:02

Simply put, it costs too much money to build housing.

9:02:06

To us, a big part of the solution is to change the scale and that's what the city of yes will allow.

9:02:13

For example, to construct an apartment building of 50 units cost a lot more per unit than constructing a building of 75 units.

9:02:23

Part of this is architects as we design to regulations, which we strongly endorse for sustainability, resiliency, safety.

9:02:32

But many of these increase the cost of any type of housing and many of these costs are a given nut.

9:02:38

So in other words, if we're designing 200 units or we're designing 50 units, bringing in service entries, accommodating fire alarm systems, those numbers really don't change.

9:02:51

For example, this is a huge issue.

9:02:53

This coming December, the department in buildings will require all new buildings Oh, thank you so much.

Rachel Fee

9:03:00

You got more than you need now.

Amie Gross

9:03:02

I don't like that.

9:03:03

Thank you.

9:03:04

We'll require new buildings of 7 or more stories to be a major building.

Dan Garodnick

9:03:11

Don't worry about it.

9:03:12

Don't worry about it.

9:03:12

We'll give you a little extra time.

Amie Gross

9:03:14

Thank you, brother.

9:03:15

A category now for buildings of 10 or more stories.

9:03:18

We totally support this because buildings need to be safer when they're built.

9:03:23

Yet this change has a significant, significant price tag, not only in the actual construction of the building, but in all of the overhead that's involved.

9:03:34

These kinds of costs can be more easily absorbed by a project that can be built somewhat larger in the same zoning lot.

9:03:42

And that's what happens as we get an economy of scale.

9:03:46

So the simple math is you construct a larger building, you spend less per unit, you charge less rent.

Dan Garodnick

9:03:52

Good.

9:03:52

Let's wrap it there.

9:03:53

I'm going to have commissioner Depp ask you a question.

9:03:54

Go ahead.

Robert Poole

9:03:55

I'm going

Joseph Douek

9:03:55

to do this right.

9:03:55

So can you continue

Kyle Jeremiah

9:03:56

to expand on what you were saying?

Amie Gross

9:03:59

Okay.

9:03:59

Thank you.

9:04:00

So I think the major issue right now is that the cost to build is increasing for all building types in New York City.

9:04:09

It's particularly increasing for housing across the board because of labor regulations, whatever the case may be.

9:04:19

The issue right now is that for not for profit developers in particular, who are competing against private developers for land, for example, which is another increased cost.

9:04:32

The only way we can make the numbers work is if we can build more building in the same envelope.

9:04:39

So if our clients are spending literally $5,000,000 to $6,000,000 to build 100 units and we can build 120 units, then their cost can be amortized.

9:04:51

And they have that much more money to build a better building.

Follow-up discussion/remarks

QUESTION

Commissioner Benjamin inquires about cost amortization and zoning changes

9:05:01

·

4 min

Commissioner Gail Benjamin asks Amie Gross about cost amortization in mid-density districts and the impact of various zoning changes proposed in City of Yes. Gross explains that the proposal's strength lies in its comprehensive approach to modifying multiple aspects of zoning regulations.

Gross highlights that changes to yard requirements, setback requirements, and FAR can collectively make construction more efficient and affordable
She estimates that the proposed changes could increase building bulk by 10-12% across their current projects
The discussion touches on the varying impacts of different zoning changes, such as parking requirements and rear yard modifications, depending on the specific context of each site

The cost to construct affordable housing has increased drastically
Building larger buildings (more units) reduces the cost per unit
New safety regulations increase construction costs
Economy of scale is crucial for affordable housing development
Non-profit developers need to build more units to make projects financially viable
Increasing building size in the same zoning lot can lead to more affordable rents

[EXPERIMENTAL]

Which elements of City of Yes for Housing Opportunity were discussed in this testimony?

I was not able to tie quotes from the testimony back to specific elements of the proposal. Check out another testimony here.

About this analysis:

This analysis is done by AI that reasons whether or not a quote from the testimony discusses a particular element of the proposal.

All the prompts and data are open and available on Github.

You can search for testimonies that mentioned a specific element in the table on the main meeting page.

When an element is explicitly stated in the testimony (e.g. "Universal Affordability Preference" or "UAP"), the analysis is accurate.

But the connection between a quote from the testimony and an element of the proposal is sometimes implicit.

In these cases, the AI might eagerly label a testimony as discussing a proposal when the connection is tenuous, or it might omit it entirely.

↗ Why are there transcription and diarization errors?

Gail Benjamin

9:05:01

When you were talking about amortizing the cost, I understand in those proposals that are resulting in additional potential FAR But in the mid density districts Yes.

9:05:18

How does that pencil out?

9:05:20

Where you're not getting significant additional, but you have the same mandates.

9:05:27

Are we, yes, fooling ourselves that the middle to Great Coast density housing is really going to happen?

Amie Gross

9:05:34

Well, I think what's great about the city of yes, it's not just adding SAR.

9:05:38

Right.

9:05:39

We're changing the yard requirements.

9:05:41

We're changing setback requirements.

9:05:43

And part of the challenge in designing any kind of affordable housing is that the sites that are left to us, we call them problem sites in the office, are so odd and so full of physical challenges that the more we can regularize in a sense the envelope of the building, the more efficient we're able to construct the building.

9:06:04

So yes, I mean there's always room for more improvements, but the notion I've been practicing long enough.

9:06:10

I've seen many iterations of the zoning resolution.

9:06:12

What's brilliant about this is that it's cutting across all the various things that we need to build.

9:06:19

It's not enough just to add FAR.

9:06:21

Right, when you start to change your requirements, then you start to see real differences.

9:06:27

So for example, the kinds of costs is that we have climate change issues.

9:06:32

The water table is rising in buildings where we will get a survey 4 years later, the water table changes.

9:06:40

We then have to increase the cost for the but to go back in new do borrowings and we have to increase the cost for foundations.

9:06:48

So whatever can be done, again, reasonably, contextually, which I believe very, very strongly is what's happening here because what we've been thinking about a lot is that there's a calibration to the city of yes.

9:07:05

It has not happened in other zoning changes that we believe is contextual.

9:07:10

And I think for certain neighborhoods, it's probably hard for them to get their head around that because Donning is extremely, extremely complex.

9:07:19

But fundamentally, I think what has to be talked about is how the city of yes will make units less expensive and hopefully will then reduce rents.

9:07:32

And that to me is the absolute key issue here.

9:07:35

Is that the only way we can build more affordable housing is if we can construct it more affordably.

Gail Benjamin

9:07:41

And do you think that the biggest reduction comes from reducing the parking requirement reducing the rear yard requirements.

9:07:53

Where do you see that balance?

Amie Gross

9:07:55

Well, because our firm works with not for profit organization, that own at 100%, we have not had parking requirements for a very long time.

9:08:04

In some areas in Staten Island that we do.

9:08:07

But I would say, again, it's sort of a contextual issue.

9:08:11

It depends on where you are.

9:08:12

So it's very expensive to build in the Bronx right now.

9:08:15

Because you have a lot of rocks and you have more water.

9:08:19

So there, the more odd shape of our site is, that much more difficult it is to build it because we're having to accommodate all of these geological changes, for example.

9:08:30

So an answer to your question is, what would be the most beneficial?

9:08:35

I wish there was a magic bullet to that.

9:08:37

I think the key is is to be able to hit all of these various regulations so that we have sort of a menu of things that we can go to.

9:08:47

So in some case, a yard change would make an enormous difference.

9:08:51

I'm just going through the buildings in our office right now.

9:08:54

In some case, FAR would make a huge difference.

9:08:57

But sometimes that they are that's left on the table because we can accommodate it because of your requirements.

Gail Benjamin

9:09:03

Well, that's been a real issue in the past also with hyper harment visits that you can't fit the SAR into the building form.

Amie Gross

9:09:12

Exactly.

Gail Benjamin

9:09:13

And do you think there's enough relief from that?

Amie Gross

9:09:16

Well, I will tell you we have at 8 new buildings in the office right now.

9:09:19

We analyze all of them.

9:09:21

And across the board, we could increase the amount of actual bulk by about 10% to 12%.

9:09:28

So to me, that bodes well.

9:09:30

I mean, if we sat down, we do on the board of CHPC.

9:09:34

I'm involved with the housing conference.

9:09:36

I mean, everybody has Right.

9:09:38

Thoughts about it.

9:09:39

The network, Shanee, has a lot of issues.

9:09:41

But generally, because it's touching so many different things, I think that really helps.

9:09:49

Thank you.

UNKNOWN

9:09:50

Thank you.

Dan Garodnick

9:09:50

And Commissioner Asorio has questions.

QUESTION

Commissioner Osorio inquires about redeveloping public land for affordable housing

9:09:50

·

94 sec

Commissioner Juan Camilo Osorio asks Amie Gross about her views on redeveloping public land for affordable housing, given the high cost of land in New York City. Gross responds with examples of successful projects on former public land, highlighting the potential for meeting affordable housing needs in prime locations.

Gross cites a project for 5th Avenue Committee on a former DOT parking lot in South Park Slope
She mentions an ongoing project in Chelsea on 22nd and 7th, developed on HPD-owned property, which will be one of the city's first new affordable co-op buildings
Gross emphasizes that many city agencies own properties that could be repurposed, and HPD is actively seeking such opportunities

The cost to construct affordable housing has increased drastically
Building larger buildings (more units) reduces the cost per unit
New safety regulations increase construction costs
Economy of scale is crucial for affordable housing development
Non-profit developers need to build more units to make projects financially viable
Increasing building size in the same zoning lot can lead to more affordable rents

[EXPERIMENTAL]

Which elements of City of Yes for Housing Opportunity were discussed in this testimony?

I was not able to tie quotes from the testimony back to specific elements of the proposal. Check out another testimony here.

About this analysis:

This analysis is done by AI that reasons whether or not a quote from the testimony discusses a particular element of the proposal.

All the prompts and data are open and available on Github.

You can search for testimonies that mentioned a specific element in the table on the main meeting page.

When an element is explicitly stated in the testimony (e.g. "Universal Affordability Preference" or "UAP"), the analysis is accurate.

But the connection between a quote from the testimony and an element of the proposal is sometimes implicit.

In these cases, the AI might eagerly label a testimony as discussing a proposal when the connection is tenuous, or it might omit it entirely.

↗ Why are there transcription and diarization errors?

Dan Garodnick

9:09:50

And Commissioner Asorio has questions.

Juan Camilo Osorio

9:09:53

Thank you, chair.

9:09:54

Thank you for your testimony.

9:09:55

Building on Commissioner Benjamin's question, in terms of the contextual infill proposed amendment?

9:10:01

And given the cost of land in New York City, do you think that we should protect or restrict the redevelopment of public land to secure affordable housing?

9:10:10

Or on the other hand do you think that we should rather stay away from it to not hinder the redevelopment?

Amie Gross

9:10:17

I just want to make sure I understand you have your question to say to take public land and be able to develop it for housing?

Kyle Jeremiah

9:10:23

Yes.

Amie Gross

9:10:24

Yes.

9:10:24

We developed a project for 5th Avenue Committee, which was a former DOT parking lot that was in a really important corner.

9:10:33

In South Park Slope.

9:10:35

It was no longer needed, and it was a perfect location to provide affordable housing.

9:10:40

And what I have found in looking at City Own Sites, because we've also done this analysis for an offer profit clients, is that they're often in areas where there's a tremendous need.

9:10:51

We are doing a project now in Chelsea, which I was here last year for U LURB, which is on 22nd and 7th and it was an HPD owned property.

9:11:01

It's now being financed by HPD and it's going to be the city's 1st or second new building of affordable co ops?

9:11:09

Thank you.

9:11:10

Good answer to your question.

9:11:11

There's a lot of agencies that own property that at this point are followed, but I do know that HPD and other agencies are constantly trying to find those properties.

Juan Camilo Osorio

9:11:23

Thank you.

9:11:23

That answered my question.

Amie Gross

9:11:24

Thank you.

Gabriel Doherty

9:11:25

Thanks, Felicia.

QUESTION

Commissioner Rosenberg inquires about zoning amendments and project timelines

9:11:26

·

117 sec

Commissioner Joseph Rosenberg asks Amie Gross about recommendations for zoning amendments and how developers might approach projects given the pending City of Yes legislation. Gross explains the challenges of balancing project timelines with potential zoning changes.

Gross discusses the difficulty for non-profit developers to delay projects due to financing considerations
She mentions a potential strategy of developing two schemes for projects - one under current zoning and another that could be amended if City of Yes passes
Gross emphasizes the importance of staying in the queue for financing while being prepared for potential zoning changes

The cost to construct affordable housing has increased drastically
Building larger buildings (more units) reduces the cost per unit
New safety regulations increase construction costs
Economy of scale is crucial for affordable housing development
Non-profit developers need to build more units to make projects financially viable
Increasing building size in the same zoning lot can lead to more affordable rents

[EXPERIMENTAL]

Which elements of City of Yes for Housing Opportunity were discussed in this testimony?

I was not able to tie quotes from the testimony back to specific elements of the proposal. Check out another testimony here.

About this analysis:

This analysis is done by AI that reasons whether or not a quote from the testimony discusses a particular element of the proposal.

All the prompts and data are open and available on Github.

You can search for testimonies that mentioned a specific element in the table on the main meeting page.

When an element is explicitly stated in the testimony (e.g. "Universal Affordability Preference" or "UAP"), the analysis is accurate.

But the connection between a quote from the testimony and an element of the proposal is sometimes implicit.

In these cases, the AI might eagerly label a testimony as discussing a proposal when the connection is tenuous, or it might omit it entirely.

↗ Why are there transcription and diarization errors?

Joseph Rosenberg

9:11:26

Thank you for your for sure being here.

Amie Gross

9:11:28

Thank you for your opportunity.

Joseph Rosenberg

9:11:30

And I have two quick questions.

9:11:32

I asked someone from the AA before.

9:11:34

Do you have any recommendations upon the sections of law and the new tax amendment that you would be able to submit.

9:11:41

I know you said you

Amie Gross

9:11:42

need to do

Joseph Rosenberg

9:11:42

a lot of new buildings, which leads me to my next question.

9:11:46

Out of those 8 buildings that you can increase to both, do you find the clientele would wait to see how this pans out?

9:11:52

Oh my gosh.

Amie Gross

9:11:52

I am so glad that you asked that question.

9:11:55

This is very very charged right now.

9:11:59

So we have done this now, so to be able to tell our clients all of these projects are easier in phases on our construction documents many of them are out to be filed with DOB.

9:12:10

And one of the answer is that it's going to be very difficult to hold back and wait because there are financing considerations that you wait a long time to get a tax credit or whatever the case may be to say I don't know what is going to happen.

9:12:28

So we actually have discussed this with the buildings department.

9:12:31

They have thought this through and I'm sure you all have spoken to them as well.

9:12:35

And the thinking is is that we would have in a sense developed 2 schemes.

9:12:41

So we would know if the 1st scheme could be added on to if Citi have yes passed.

9:12:46

And then we would put in an amendment application, but at least this way from a financing standpoint, we would be in the queue.

9:12:55

But I do say that this is an issue, but all legislation takes time, but this is particularly in the non profit community when they borrowing money for land, there has to be a revenue stream, and so you can't really put a project on hold.

9:13:11

So we do have 2 very, very significant projects that are sort of being dragged out, if you will.

9:13:19

But, yeah, it's definitely an issue.

9:13:20

Thank you.

9:13:21

I'm so glad you brought that up.

9:13:23

I forgot about that.

9:13:24

Yeah.

Robert Poole

9:13:24

I do.

QUESTION

Commissioner Marin explores financing challenges of increased affordable housing units

9:13:26

·

5 min

Commissioner Orlando Marin engages with Amie Gross about the financial implications of increasing affordable housing units under the City of Yes proposal. They discuss the complexities of tax credits, financing mechanisms, and construction costs associated with building more units.

The conversation highlights potential challenges in financing more units with existing funding allocations
Gross mentions alternative financing options being explored, such as floating bonds instead of using tax credits
They discuss the need for additional funding mechanisms to capitalize on the proposed 20% increase in units

The cost to construct affordable housing has increased drastically
Building larger buildings (more units) reduces the cost per unit
New safety regulations increase construction costs
Economy of scale is crucial for affordable housing development
Non-profit developers need to build more units to make projects financially viable
Increasing building size in the same zoning lot can lead to more affordable rents

[EXPERIMENTAL]

Which elements of City of Yes for Housing Opportunity were discussed in this testimony?

I was not able to tie quotes from the testimony back to specific elements of the proposal. Check out another testimony here.

About this analysis:

This analysis is done by AI that reasons whether or not a quote from the testimony discusses a particular element of the proposal.

All the prompts and data are open and available on Github.

You can search for testimonies that mentioned a specific element in the table on the main meeting page.

When an element is explicitly stated in the testimony (e.g. "Universal Affordability Preference" or "UAP"), the analysis is accurate.

But the connection between a quote from the testimony and an element of the proposal is sometimes implicit.

In these cases, the AI might eagerly label a testimony as discussing a proposal when the connection is tenuous, or it might omit it entirely.

↗ Why are there transcription and diarization errors?

Orlando Marin

9:13:26

So you you just opened up a thought to me in that so if if you do have properties that and I understand it's two scenarios, and I can I can get that very simple?

9:13:37

The complicated part then would be the financing because now you're talking about tax credit, right?

Amie Gross

9:13:41

Well

Orlando Marin

9:13:42

And so if you're increasing the amount of affordable housing that increases your basis, it's going to increase.

9:13:47

Yes.

9:13:47

Tax credit.

Amie Gross

9:13:48

Yes.

Orlando Marin

9:13:49

How are you how are your clients or have they thought about how are they going to work around that tax credit the loss, let's call it because that's the higher you go than the less of a credit that you have, less of a financing you have for your building.

9:14:02

Exactly.

9:14:03

Have they thought about that and what I have planned?

Amie Gross

9:14:05

This is a big, big topic of conversation there.

9:14:08

We have clients now that are talking to the state about floating bonds rather than using tax credits.

9:14:14

I do think the good news is that City of Yes can create more units.

9:14:19

The difficult thing is that HPD, state of New York, office and mental health, just did a huge $1,000,000,000 funding.

9:14:28

Assumed a certain number of units would be developed from that tranche of money.

9:14:32

Correct.

9:14:32

But like you say, that that's all gonna work out.

9:14:36

But in a certain sense, one of the reasons I do what I do is the people that are involved in affordable housing in New York are really smart.

9:14:45

They are not afraid of change.

9:14:47

They're always looking for new ways to do things.

9:14:49

I think people are looking at this as a good problem.

9:14:53

Yet it will hit a point where things will start to get difficult because you're gonna have sort of this intranets and spiking of people.

9:15:01

Was that wing I thought I was gonna get to bill my building.

9:15:04

I thought it was going to be 80 units.

9:15:06

Now it's going to be 100.

9:15:07

They're going to compete against somebody else.

9:15:09

So, obviously, in an ideal world, there would be more financing available so that they could feed each other.

Orlando Marin

9:15:18

Well, that goes right into my next question because then if there is a set number of financing, then the unit count, if the unit count increases, that means that you're financing less units in essence because now the amount of money that was dedicated or earmarked for a 1000 units could only go to financing 800 units.

9:15:43

So that means that that housing will really get pushed out to another year Or as you say, there has to be another funding mechanism to be floated Right.

9:15:51

To make up that difference Right.

9:15:52

Capitalized on the 20% that we're trying.

9:15:54

Exactly.

Amie Gross

9:15:54

I mean, for example, we just met with our structural engineer on these two projects and we're debating whether or not we should make our foundations more robust.

Dan Garodnick

9:16:03

Correct.

Amie Gross

9:16:04

To be able to maybe halfway through construction or something, we'll come back and we'll add some other stores.

9:16:12

But I mean everything takes time.

9:16:15

It's really complicated and

9:16:19

we work with all the

9:16:20

agencies and I feel for them because there's a limited amount of money in every single source.

9:16:26

And just when you talk about tax credits, there's so few projects that are actually funded by tax reform.

Orlando Marin

9:16:32

I know that's why I'm bringing it up.

9:16:34

And then, of course, if you're increasing structure,

Amie Gross

9:16:37

Yes.

Orlando Marin

9:16:37

Then Anne, you have in the architect designed 2 buildings and the engineer designed 2 buildings.

9:16:41

Now your costs for those services and those Right.

9:16:44

Those line items architectural engineering struck and I hope to do it as well.

Amie Gross

9:16:47

You're right.

9:16:48

But it's all a good thing.

9:16:50

Right?

9:16:50

We're all doing this because we're trying to build more affordable houses.

9:16:52

Everybody's excited.

9:16:54

But you hit the nail on the head.

9:16:56

All these questions are there's a lot of implications.

9:16:59

I mean, we meet new office every Monday and every Monday we've been talking about it is, yes, from months.

9:17:05

And every Monday, somebody says, do we think about butter better?

9:17:09

So, yes, going back to your question about we can certainly put together I think the AIA already has some draft work.

9:17:18

I know CHPC has put work together, the Xinyi network has put because it's so vast and I do think that as an architect who works with contractors all the time, unless you're in our world of actually building a very hard to visualize what those issues can be.

9:17:39

So for example, if we bring in water and sewer into a building, that's an enormous task, right?

9:17:45

We have to close down the street.

9:17:46

We have to deal with DOT.

9:17:47

We have to deal with DOB.

9:17:50

If we shut the street down for a 100 units, or we shut it down for 400 units, the same process.

9:17:58

So the good thing is, is that by increasing FIR and modifying these other regulations, we will, as I said, be able to amortize those costs.

9:18:10

And I think that's where the city is at its very difficult point right now because between the funding limitations and the zoning limitations, it's really, really difficult to build.

9:18:23

And I think for the non profit developers, they have an advantage in one sense and that they don't have a profit motive, right?

9:18:33

So every nickel they can figure out goes back into actually building.

9:18:39

So you put profit in it, which is obviously where capital is society, it becomes that much more difficult.

Orlando Marin

9:18:46

And even when profit is built in, not for profit, it's always it gets absorbed in the project, so they don't really don't have to see that profit.

Amie Gross

9:18:54

Yeah.

9:18:55

Yes.

Dan Garodnick

9:18:57

Thank you, commissioner.

9:18:58

Thank you, commissioner.

9:18:58

And thank you very much for it.

9:19:01

It was very helpful.

Amie Gross

9:19:02

Oh, sure.

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